AUSTRALIAN POULTRY FORUM™

Thankyou
Could you warn me as to when you are going to sell so that i dont miss out??
Also where are you located??
Would you ship Guineas, if your too far away for me to pick them up??

Have been reading Turkeyboys posts re cinnamons and hate to see what should be a reasonable discussion turning sour. I have had lots of help and ideas from this forum particularly from Ace but STILL battle to get my head arround the genetics regarding cinnamon. I started with a flock of pearl/lavender guins.(27) My first breeding season I hatched 300 odd birds about 30 of which were cins and one silver from these birds. 14 hens and 16 cockbirds and the silver (not a good bird) was a hen. How does this work if the cin gene is sex linked? We are all here to give and share info and a for dumb !!!!!!!! like me this is where I start. Lets just sit back take a deep breath and start again.

It’s because of the family gene pool your stock has come from it maybe a long way back 4-5+ generations. You need 2 copies in a cockbird and 1 copy in the hen and no that does not make the hen split because you need the 3 copies and without it you won't breed them. So out of 300 odd hatched the odds are in your favor especially with silver in the mix the odds go up big time.

This topic will not be hijacked by nonsense about Recessive Bronze Fallow Budgieguineas that do not exist, everyone stick to the topic OK

I haven't time to answer your post tonight scorpartus, but will do so tomorrow! In the interim, it was your (scorpartus) in part first post here that I was refferring to when I said that Cinnamons had been bred out of "other than Cinnamon" coloured birds.

Ace, I agree, keeping info productive & rational will benefit all

Good question & in part what I had asked in other thread. I had asked if the factor for Cinnamon here in Aus was the same as that elsewhere for "brown/buff/dun" because quite a bit of literature (old maybe) says that the gene responsible is autosomal & not sex linked. It is possible that the gene is different & sex-linked resulting in differing modes of inheritance & trait effects (including red eyes)?


Yes, the gene responsible for "Cinnamon" colouration is a mutation from wild-type. It is likely to be recessive because from what I have read in your thread & others (see quote below) there was no phenotypical evidence in your original breeding birds, but you bred Cinnamon from them.


If bred Cinnamon to Cinnamon without other influencing factors then you should breed straight Cinnamon. There is a thread elsewhere where the author states that when he breeds Cinnamon to Cinnamon he produces all Cinnamon progeny. If other factors involved (mutation combinations), eg that for blue/lavender then colour may be altered accordingly; I believe some call birds with combined homo blue/lavender & brown/buff/dun genes (without spots) Porcelain?


Scorpartus, it was this part of your post that really had me interested! Because it was done some time ago I didn't know if you were still active on this site or not. As I understand from what you have said (correct if wrong) you started with 4 Lavenders & 20 Pearl Greys (don't worry about the white spotting for the minute); no evidence of any phenotypically Cinnamon birds amongst them correct? This indicates for me that the mutation for Cinnamon is recessive; the gene is/was hidden in members of your original flock. What would be really helpful to know (particulary with numbers bred) is, were only female Cinnamon progeny bred, or both male & female Cinnamon progeny bred out of the "about 25" ? Cinnamon birds produced?

You see, if only Cinnamon female progeny bred then this is a good indication that whatever has caused the Cinnamon phenotype in the "about 25" birds is in fact sex-linked. One (or more?) of your males would be carrying one dose (they need two to express) of the recessive gene hidden & has/have passed it onto some female progeny. If sex-linked, they (the females) only need the one dose for a recessive to express as they are hemizygous for the gene. They can't be "split" or carry a sex-linked recessive hidden.

If both male & female Cinnamon progeny bred then we are talking about an autosomal gene, no question! Why? Because being a recessive (as we have already identified) the male needs two doses for colour to express phenotypically & one dose has to come from the female (mother). If sex-linked we would see some evidence of it in her wouldn't we. If autosomal then one (or more) of your "normal coloured" females could be split for, or carry hidden, one dose of the recessive factor responsible for Cinnamon & pass that onto male progeny. Hence, one dose from mum & one dose from dad equals two doses & our recessive becomes apparent in the phenotype of both sexes!

Some say the gene (if only single gene involvement) responsible is sex-linked, others say that it isn't (example). I don't know? I would like to understand it better though for when I find a Cinnamon to add to my menagerie

drayllor said = If both male & female Cinnamon progeny bred then we are talking about an autosomal gene, no question! Why? Because being a recessive (as we have already identified) the male needs two doses for colour to express phenotypically & one dose has to come from the female (mother). If sex-linked we would see some evidence of it in her wouldn't we.

Guinea fowl international wrote = Things get more complicated when we move onto the brown colours: buff, brown and chocolate. These colours are believed to be sex-linked. A chocolate male has two copies of the chocolate gene, while a chocolate hen only needs one copy of that gene.

So you are suggesting our cinnamons are completely different genetically to buff, brown and chocolate of every other country? If so can you explain how this happened, how they were developed originally. I hope we see PA come on and set the record straight

Oops, I missed this. One of my many problems is that I often fail to read completely & just skim (like some others)

If I have read & interpretted/understood correctly, then you scorpartus started with a flock of 24 birds, none of which showed any evidence of Cinnamon colour phenotypically. From these you bred approx 300 birds of which approx 30 (10%) were Cinnamon coloured; both male & female Cinnamon coloured Guinea Fowl (14 hens and 16 cockbirds) were produced!

If this is the case, then whatever factor (if single) has produced the Cinnamon progeny in your instance really has to be a recessive autosome, & not sex-linked! If both parents heterozygous for an autosomal recessive the probable outcome could be approx 25% of progeny bred expressing the trait (in this instance Cinnamon), both sexes.

If you read this scorpartus could you please clarify that I have interpretted what you have said correctly. If anyone else believes this to not be an autosomal acting gene could you please help me understand why as am quite happy to be corrected!

Thanks all

Aren't you forgetting SILVER here which is also sex linked in red eyed only and can help produce cinnamon.

Your hypothesis is interesting reading drayllor and well put together.
We could add to all this hypothesis with the possibility of this conundrum using the “lutino” now most are inherit sex-linked recessive, but there are also some lutino forms that inherit autosomal recessive (The lutino Elegant parakeet, for an example) so another hypothesis is we have 2 genes at play here being both are red eye.
As far as the add on farmstock well who ever that person is should change it to read “I BELIEVE THEY ARE NOT SEX-LINKED” by saying “Cinnamons are red-eyed but NOT sex-linked” is NOT TRUE, right here right now they are known as sexed linked and have been for decades and until he proves otherwise by a complete study by a geneticist and years of breeding results all documented then all he is doing is making a fool of himself. For the record I have a large flock of free range guineas [pearl/cinnamon and lavender] that have MANY splits possibly 50% in the flock. I have fairly equal number of cockbirds and hens and most are related. I have NEVER had a cinnamon appear in my flock EVER, that is EVER, not one, NEVER which is no surprise to me as they are sex linked so no split hens but on the hypothesis of recessive then hens would be split and I would have cinnamons running around but I don’t. Now I have just added to the flock 3 silver hens and now I will see if I breed cinnamon which I believe I will because silver is also sex linked in red eye only. I have emailed PA and asked for him to take a look at the topic and hopefully post the facts about cinnamons again. No one knows more about guineas than PA so his word will be the final word on this and we can move on

Ace and GascoyneGuineas, Please except my apology if I have offended you both in anyway,,,

I could be totally wrong about my theory. Or we could be confusing two different brown coloured mutation in guinea fowls, Your brown coloured birds could possibly be the real sex-link “Cinnamon” mutation,,,,

And that would be based on the way your brown coloured birds inherits it’s colour.

Inregards to Scorpartus brown coloured birds he clearly states that his original brown coloured birds came from his Pearls and Lavender stock, And produce brown coloured offspring of both sexes which would indicate his brown coloured birds are breeding recessive .......

I find Scorpartus brown coloured birds and a number of other breeders birds very interesting., They seem to have a distinct red ruby glow to the eyes ,,, Which seems to be unique and different to other brown mutations found overseas....


I look forward to reading PA thoughts on this topic.

Cheers
Shawn