AUSTRALIAN POULTRY FORUM™

Show some proof of either colour in Sussex. Not sure how a java could be mistaken for a sussex. It's like mistaking a donkey for Black Caviar!.

I've never seen a Black Sussex or a true Mottled Sussex in Australia, nor in Great Britain when I've visited.

I think some people often confuse Mottled Sussex with Silver Sussex, and for those who don't know, on rare occasions they have been mistaken for Speckled Sussex. The only reference that I have heard of Mottled Sussex was at a show that I once judged and the steward told me that there were 5 or 6 assorted "Mottled Sussex" in the AOC Sussex classes. They turned out to be poor quality feather examples of Silver Sussex.

There is no reference to Black Sussex or Mottled Sussex in the Australian Standards, however as I stated above, I think people get confused or mistaken with the actual colour descriptions.

And Bill I think like a Breeder because I am a breeder. Judging is just an invitation by a poultry club to one who breeds, understands, can pass on knowledge, and can interpret the Australian Standards and adjudicate on the various species.
For the record a Java and a Sussex are nothing like each other. They are have a totally different skeletal conformation make-up.

Nice line not sure I swallow it.

There is a very big difference between silver sussex and mottled and I doubt anyone that has them are confused as to the difference.

The Java is similar to Plymouth Rocks which is no surprise as the rocks originate from Java's

Thanks for the compliment on my line, however Bill, if you don't swallow it, then what is your interpretation on how a judge is selected? Is my description and/or criteria incorrect?

Yes, I fully agree with you on the very big colour differences between Silver and Mottled Sussex, however many inexperienced stewards, as was in the case that day I judged those AOC Sussex classes, simply don't know.
As Denis said, he has never seen a true Mottled Sussex in the show pens in Australia and neither have I. Again as Denis said, where is the proof by way of photos in Australia?

I also noticed with interest that you didn't comment on my statement.."For the record a Java and a Sussex are nothing like each other. They are have a totally different skeletal conformation make-up."

On the Plymouth Rock subject, as you well know the Plymouth Rock was made up by an initial joining of Dominique Males over Black Java Females from an original mating in the USA by Dr Bennett in 1848, and later refined by men like Burnham, Spaulding and Upham.
Upham actually named the breed, but he used a cross of Dominique male over a Black Cochin hen.

On a similar vein the skeletal conformation make-up of the Plymouth Rock and the Sussex, as we know them today, are vastly different, especially in the bone structure, as is the Sussex verses Java conformation.

"skeletal conformation make-up" oh seriously are you going to talk about subatomic cell difference next. You are way off track here with what was asked in the first place. The fact dennis or yourself have not seen them in a show pen is not remarkable and no one here has mentioned shows. Put down the standard for five minutes and look outside the box because many new breed colours are on the go as we speak and not in show pens. Perhaps both you are dennis need to be patient for some pictures, just a thought.

Now now Bill, there is no need to be like that. Nobody here mentioned subatomic cell difference or any reference to subatomic physics, so there is no need to get off the track.

We are just simple poultry people just like you, but Denis and I (and countless others who read these forums) have inspected fowls all over Australia when we judge. One of the key principles in aspects of fowls is knowing the skeletal make-up, (ie; the conformation of a fowl.) therefore you get to recognise the various characteristics when you physically handle them.
Denis and I mentioned shows because we exhibit and judge. Both of us, and many others, also breed, and I can't speak for Denis, but I have bred a few different colours, particularly "sports" by pure accident.

Those breeders brave enough to make up new colours in various breeds have a long road to haul especially if they want that particular breed or colour recognised in Australia by their peers. I personally worked on one colour, with other breeders, for a popular breed and it took more than ten long years of lobbying before the colour was added to the Australian Poultry Standards 2nd Edition.

With respect to your comment of "Put down the standard for five minutes and look outside the box because many new breed colours are on the go as we speak and not in show pens" , I agree and acknowledge that other colours are being experimented with. However I also feel that these breeders should really master the "type" of the standard fowls before they go experimenting with colours.

You would have to agree that if a Judge does not judge to the recommended standards, whether it be poultry, dogs or horses, the judging and breeding of show animals and birds would turn into Rafferty's Rules, and you might as well get Charlie from The Corner Store to judge them. The Standards are a basic guideline to the perfection of the species.

I don't want to get into the debate, but I would like to see photo's of how far along they have come in development.
I don't get to see many breeds here let alone new colours.

Well, Bill, now you have three people waiting to see the photographs of these allusive Aussie bred Mottled and Black Sussex. We'll wait patiently with bated breath for the results.

As will I

I mentioned that because YOU went into the internals of the chicken not me so I thought that was where you were heading next.

As Bill did not mention pictures AA you may not want to hold your breath please I would hate you turning blue. As I said earlier I will see what I can do to get some pictures so relax